CWU LIVING HISTORY PROJECT
Tom Kerr
Interviewed by Eldon Jacobsen
(Transcription of Tape 1, Side 1)
T.K.: Uh, I was born in Salt Lake City in 1930. My parents were immigrants from
I was born on the Fourth of July and my family used to always say I was the first foreigner in the family. We lived there for some years and eventually, just before I started the first grade, we – the family moved to Seattle and I consider Seattle my home town, because that’s where I grew up and, uh, that’s where my family ultimately seems to have reestablished itself over many years. Uh, I had – I should say something about my family. One of my brothers was a Naval officer – went to Annapolis and, uh, later became a – he was a lawyer for General Electric and in recent years – he’s still alive – he’s in his 70’s, he’s sailed around the world for something like six or seven years and he bicycles across the country and so forth. The other – another brother was working his whole career in the Central Intelligence Agency. And my sister lived most of her married life in New Jersey. And I have a younger sister who’s in her 50’s now, but she lives in
Uh, I went to school in, uh – at St. Benedict’s School in Wallingford district. Uh, the people who live in that area know the neighborhood. I worked when I was a kid, as a soda jerk, in a drugstore in Wallingford and 45th Street – and all my years was called the Lincoln (inaudible) . . .
E.J.: 45th and Wallingford?
T.K.: Wallingford. And, uh, then, uh after that, I went to Seattle Prep, which is on Capitol Hill; and had a very, very good high school experience, I believe. The Jesuits were pretty rigorous people. Academics took absolute priority. I think I had good preparation for college, but unfortunately, I had no advice on what to do. I think what they wanted me to do was to be a priest or something like that. I didn’t care for that idea. But my parents really didn’t – they were not academically trained. They’d never been to school or anything so they really didn’t know what to tell me to do, but somehow or other someone got into my head the idea that I (inaudible) to the university, which is in Montreal. The idea, presumably, was to study medicine; and I thought that that might be a exciting thing to do. In the meantime, I’d earned enough money to pay for at least one year at that school while I was working as a dishwasher up in Alaska. I worked up there for five – I’d go up there in the summer. I started going up there in 1946.
E.J.: During high school.
T.K.: During high school. Go off and work in those canneries; and the money was pretty good. So, I had a kind of little nest egg to pay for this thing, so I went back. And – and I think the city was just overwhelming and the university, itself, had – didn’t advise people. Just said, “What are you going to take?” Put you in a class and, uh, as a result of that, at the end of the year, I realized, you know, I was getting nowhere, was struggling very, very hard; and I thought, “Well, I’ll go back to Seattle and, uh, earn some more money.” By then, I was running out of money anyway so I went back to Seattle to try to regroup my thinking and decide what to do next. It was at that particular stage that the Korean War broke out and so I, uh, I went into the Service; and I served in
E.J.: Which Service?
T.K.: I went into the Air Force; and I was there in 1951. And then, I spent some time after my service there in
E.J.: Is this in Seattle, now?
T.K.: This was in Washington, D.C.
E.J.: Oh, D.C.?
T.K.: Right. And, uh, so I was working there; and as part of the management intern program, the federal government agreed to pay my tuition if I wanted to go to George Washington University at night, which, of course – this was before there was any financial aid. Uh, again, I had a couple of children – two, a daughter and a son. So, there was no way I could pay that kind of tuition otherwise. The government agreed to pick up my tuition, as long as I was making progress towards a Master’s Degree. So, I did it at night and, uh, this was my first shot at graduate work, and seemed to go very well, much to my surprise.
E.J.: This is George Washington University.
T.K.: At George Washington, at night. And so, uh, I was working with the government and I was faced with a kind of a decision that I had to make. There seemed to be a very clear line of progress that I could take, in terms of my career. I saw all kinds of opportunities to, uh, make a career in the federal government at that particular time. But I also had this thought about wanting to teach, uh, and, uh, financially, at that time, - that was in the late ‘50’s – of course, it was not as lucrative as it subsequently came to be; and so, I always – I toyed with the idea about a pretty promising bureaucratic career versus the advantage of a genteel life of poverty, you know. Something like that. Well, of course I knew that I would have to go on beyond the Master’s Degree for that to happen. So, based on my work as a Master’s Degree student, I didn’t know whether anyone would pick me for this kind of thing – you just don’t know. So, I applied Syracuse, uh, University of Maxwell School is a very reputable school. So, I applied and much to my amazement, they not only accepted me, but provided the fellowship that once again paid my tuition – you know, it was one of these teaching-type things. Again, this was in the day – I’m glad, you know, now with these financial aid claims, you people come out with a huge debt, but in this particular case, I was – I didn’t have to pile (inaudible). But, uh, so, I (inaudible) PhD studies (inaudible).
E.J.: That was about what year?
T.K.: That was starting in, uh, 1959. 1960, actually – just, you know, just early 1960. So, starting work there at Syracuse, and, um, (inaudible) classes and I was a Graduate Teaching Assistant. That was my first experience at teaching. Um, and I did really well. I did (inaudible) – I sometimes look back and wonder, you know, what – how I ever did that or what the students got out of it at that stage of my development. But, who knows? So, anyway, but I – so I took coursework there for three years; and, uh, I had not finished the dissertation. It was one of those A.B.D. things. And, uh, not even – in fact, not only that, I hadn’t taken my comprehensive exams at this time, but having two children and, uh, rather difficult during the time that I was going to Syracuse, I also held a night job at the local blood bank, shipping out blood. (chuckle) Uh, in addition – but that was – I had to pay the bills, that was the thing. So by – At the end of three years, I completed all the necessary coursework, but I (inaudible)
E.J.: Before you leave education, you said one of the reasons you wanted to study political science was so you could find some answers about
T.K.: No, I’m still looking. (chuckle) Actually, I – it’s (inaudible) okay. But, uh – but anyway, I – so I thought I had to leave – I had to get some kind of a job after three years. Uh, that was a very good time, as you may remember – 1962, ’63. Universities and colleges all over the country were opening up. So, I sent out a whole bunch of letters and I got all kinds of responses, which doesn’t happen these days, but it did in those days. I wanted to stay close to Syracuse, uh, for the time being, so that I was sure to finish. The worry would be if I left, that it would be trouble. So, I was offered a position at the State University in New York (inaudible), and there’s several units there – that’s twenty or thirty colleges associated with it. And the one that I was hired at was in a place called Onionta, which is upstate. It’s near the Catskills, about eighty miles from Syracuse. That was just about perfect for me. It was a school, very similar in some ways, to Central – like a former teacher’s college. Uh, expanded and so forth and so on. And so, while I was – I was there from that time until 1970; and during that time, I did take my comprehensive exams and I did my dissertation. And so, by 1970, I was ready to move again, and I wanted to. And, uh, we toyed with the idea – I really liked New York. I love the state of New York. It was a very beautiful place. Sometimes the tremendous snows and so forth, would get weary after awhile, but my wife, at that time, thought that it would be better to move back out to the Pacific Northwest; uh, and so we did. I came to Central – well, I was hired, uh – first read of the opening and wrote a letter to Bob Yatey. Uh, and didn’t hear from him for a long time; and then, all of a sudden, I got a call from him saying that a Dean was coming through Syracuse, would I meet him. It turned out to be Tony Canedo. So Tony Canedo was the first person I met from Central. Uh, we had lunch in Syracuse and so forth; and then, just a few weeks later, I got a call from Bob, offering me the job.
E.J.: And this was in 1964?
E.J.: No, that was ’70.
T.K.: No, this was 1970. My service here began the summer of 1970. So, that’s basically, how I got here.
E.J.: That’s an interesting history.
T.K.: Yeah. It’s all kinds of unplanned twists and bends and so forth.
E.J.: Uh, you came at what rank?
T.K.: Well, I came as an Associate.
E.J.: An Associate. Good. And for historic reference, roughly, what was your salary?
T.K.: Well, as I recall, it was about ten thousand and something. Ten thousand, which I thought was pretty good at that time. I’m not sure – I think that’s about what it was.
E.J.: You know, we’re getting this from various people through the years. It makes an interesting pattern.
T.K.: Yes. Why I started teaching at, uh, (inaudible). My first one was for six thousand, I think.
E.J.: In New York?
T.K.: In New York. But this was upstate.
E.J.: Well, upstate’s different. (inaudible – Interviewer and T.K. talking over one another) . . . not too much better than your Graduate Assistantship.
T.K.: Well, that was a lot of money at that time.
E.J.: Right. Yes, sir. Truly it was.
T.K.: At least we had insurance, retirement and things like that.
E.J.: Right. Your assignment – What in Political Science were you primarily teaching?
T.K.: Yes. I, in fact, my entire career at Central was teaching (inaudible – Interviewer and T.K. talking over one another)
E.J.: What sorts of classes would you do?
T.K.: Well, I taught in a great many different areas in Political Science. That was, to me, one of the great advantages of teaching in a small school. Uh, I really didn’t want to get stuck in a situation where I taught the same course and so specialized for my whole career. Uh, the field - In fact, that was one of the reasons why I moved. Uh, (inaudible) the unit that I was in, uh, basically everyone basically perceived their job as teaching a very specific course or two; and that’s all that was ever going to happen. Now I found that I just get bored to death with that kind of thing and the field of politics is wide open, and so, here I was offered a lot more chance to – uh – move around, basically, as long as no one else in the department was claiming it. Uh, there was comparative politics, political bond, international politics. Ultimately, I increasingly focused just on American, uh, by that I mean teaching courses in the legislative process, the presidency, the political parties and so forth and so on.
E.J.: As I remember, fairly early and, quote, “extra curricular,” you took over United Nations students.
T.K.: Well, that was a part of my assignment, but that never – uh, Elcone Dill was the one who really pushed that and he – of course, he was still here at that time, and so, uh, he basically took that. So I never – although I taught international organization – I taught the course, uh, that was something I taught back in New York, but, uh, I’ve never tackled any organizational – It was basically moribund when I came; and it never did take off until probably presently Rex Word has done something with it, but I don’t know. By then, I was out of the area and involved in American, primarily American. So, within Political Science, I basically taught almost all the courses that there are except one or two. That’s been a source of pleasure because I liked to – of course you could become a dilettante, but we’re an undergraduate program.
E.J.: Right.
T.K.: I think you can get away with that.
E.J.: To establish a little frame of reference here, who were some of the people that you knew early in your career here?
T.K.: Well, of course, Bob Mockey was my first contact and we’re still very, very close friends. Other people that were in the department at the time were, um, Elwyn Odell and Charles Stastny whom I want to talk about a little here. There was a woman from
E.J.: They changed often?
T.K.: They changed a lot. Later, of course, Burt Williams, I would associate with. He was still, I think, Chairman of the History Department at that time. So those are the main people that were – Tony Canedo was a Dean at that time.
E.J.: Right. He was in administration at that time?
T.K.: Right.
E.J.: That would have been when he went back to interview you?
T.K.: Right. So those are the main people around at that particular time.
E.J.: Uh, do you remember any high points, uh, in the department or the university in those early years?
T.K.: Well, uh, say between the 1970 (inaudible) – in the early 1970’s, I – one of the things that stands out in my mind was something of a great surprise to me was, uh, that was a period, I suppose following the collapse of Boeing, when the – all of a sudden, the kind of rich source of fun suddenly began to dry up. And so there were threats of layoffs here, and so forth and so on. And one of the things that kind of sticks in my mind from those very early years for me – the early ‘70’s, was – at that time – I first experienced what I thought was real hostility from the State Legislature towards higher education. There was a group of legislators over there that seemed to really not think too highly of higher education. And that was a great shock to me at the time. I think we’re used to it now. Uh, that may have been kind of a forerunner of some of the things we see nowadays, but I had thought all those years of preparation and so forth, that I was entering a very noble profession and so forth. I still do. But to hear people who didn’t share that with me was a bit of a shock; but those were hard times though, especially if you didn’t have tenure, uh, in the early ‘70’s because they were laying people off. Uh, and I remember having all kinds of anguish (inaudible) having left a tenured position and I was tenured at (inaudible) – uh, very secure there; and having come out here and then getting caught up in something that I hadn’t anticipated. But, uh, I – my memory (inaudible) – Chip Brooks, for example of course, was desperately seeking ways to deal with the crisis, which I think he had been fortunate being here during the, you know, the “rich” days, when the school was expanding and whatnot; and then, of course, facing an entirely different situation.
E.J.: Do I hear that as a political science – scientist, you were a little surprised to find academia as political as it was?
T.K.: Well, uh, well, it’s always been (inaudible) – in fact, I think it’s the worst kind of politics really, you know, academic politics. I think anybody that’s been in it would know that. I think maybe being in Political Science makes one a little more able sometimes to understand why people are doing these things, but it doesn’t make it any more pleasant.
E.J.: You’d perceive this then as being one of the major problems early. Do you see other significant problems on campus at that time?
T.K.: Well, I don’t think so. I think that there were some interesting - I missed the period when they had the colloquiums, you know, things (inaudible) I just came right after that. But there were some interesting attempts made. I remember in our own department, we allow students to sit in our departmental meetings and to vote, which I thought was an interesting thing to try to do; and, uh, I certainly met some very, very good people here at that time. Um, again, if you ask me for over arching memories, sometimes you remember the worst things and not the best. In our department, uh, now this goes up into the later ‘70’s, we of course, had the problem of Charles Stastny, which is, I guess, probably something that others are talking about.
E.J.: Yes. And it would be interesting to get your perception on him.
T.K.: The problem as I see it, and it’s just my perception of (inaudible) – that Charles – uh, you know, was a difficult person to try to do his job, which I considered to be that of meeting one’s classes and teaching competently. Uh, it illustrates, I think, one of the great problems we have, you know. He would constantly fall back on, uh, defense of academic freedom, when one should be able to whatever one wants to in the classroom and that it’s nobody else’s business; and I’ve always, of course, adhered to the concept of academic freedom, by all means, especially in politics. But in order for freedom to exist, it has to be exercised responsibly; and, uh, I think I shared with Bob Gabe, the feeling that Charles was not being responsible. So, there were a couple of occasions where he simply did not meet his classes and, uh, not at all – just took off for places abroad and on one occasion, uh – and of course leaving students just there, which is how I see it. Well, uh, eventually, this was causing great difficulty for our department and, uh, this was just after Don Garrity arrived on the scene, uh, but then that was in the late – the very late ‘70’s, and on one occasion where he had failed to meet his classes, in the beginning of the quarter because he was in India, uh, Bob (inaudible) took the situation to this new President; and the new President basically undertook steps to fire him; and this was, of course, a tenured member in the department, and so, um, had to go through a rather lengthy process, due process of law to follow (inaudible) this whole thing.
E.J.: You said John Terry?
T.K.: Who?
E.J.: The President?
T.K.: Um, Garrity.
E.J.: McGarrity?
T.K.: Garrity.
E.J.: Oh, I’m sorry. Right, right.
T.K.: Oh, I don’t think there’s much to be said, you know, about the details of it, except that I – I, uh, I feel it was a very sad event that – it’s a major event, I think, in the history of the university. I don’t think there have been very many . . .
E.J.: But they wouldn’t know as many of the details and academic freedom is a concept that we have on our list to discuss, so I think this concrete illustration is . . .
T.K.: Well, yes. I’ve always thought, like any kind of freedom, you have to exercise it responsibly, you know. Uh, using that as a cover for being irresponsible is to me, uh, unfortunate. It hurts the entire profession. And I felt that way very strongly; and I was very, very supportive of Bob Gabe and that whole proceeding. It was very difficult for him.
E.J.: Was any of this tied in at all with his wife, who had also taught in a department?
T.K.: I think it was. I, I didn’t know her very well. I don’t even. . .
E.J.: Plus, she was no longer teaching.
T.K.: She was no longer teaching, but she was a very assertive person, as I recall - very, very assertive, and how much of this kind of behavior was Charles’ and how much of it was pushed by her, I don’t know, of course. But I remember she was very, very assertive.
E.J.: (inaudible) at that time, she was just a little to far out on the Women’s Movement or was it something else?
T.K.: That might have been. But, again, I didn’t know her and that was, of course, the late ‘70’s, and that’s when . . .
E.J.: But there are interesting asides in the development of Central. Now, you mentioned administrators, uh, Dr. Brooks and Dr. Harrington; and your perception of administrators . . .
T.K.: Well, I, uh, again, what I (inaudible), universally favorable. I always thought the world of Jim Brooks. I think he’s a good, decent man, and, uh, has the total interest of the university at heart. I also have very warm feelings for Ed Harrington, whom I always thought of as a very honest man. Uh, he may not have been the easiest person to communicate with. I think anyone knows that, but I think he was a person who, again, worked on behalf of the faculty to the degree that he could, uh, and you could trust his word, which I think is very important. So, my experience – I never – I always kind of steered clear of administrators. All my career I never liked – I tried to keep my distance from these people (chuckle). Uh, the person that I was closest to as an administrator was Bob Gabe, and, uh, I always kind of admired him. He was a good - he ran a very good department. In many ways, he was . . .
E.J.: Well, I think that’s important to . . .
T.K.: . . . very formal kind of . . .
E.J.: . . . have that on tape, that many of us have a high regard for Bob.
T.K.: Yes. He just ran a very excellent department. It was very carefully run, but I always felt a huge amount of freedom to be able to – in terms of teaching, and I really enjoyed that. Again, he liked to have his meetings and minutes. Everything was quite – quite, um, carefully organized and he was also a very thoughtful person. Uh, he was not given to loose opinions, and I – I am. So, so it’s always kind of a corrective – and I kind of go off (inaudible). He would – he would sometimes say something . . .
E.J.: This may seem a little out of context, but do you remember any humorous events that stand out?
T.K.: Well, there have been some. Um, I don’t know how far to go with this. It’s really a fun thing. Perhaps I shouldn’t mention any names, uh, because I’ll just tell the story of what happened.
E.J.: Oh.
T.K.: Uh, a colleague of mine, uh, retired, and I stayed in very, very close contact with him after he retired, when he moved away; and, uh, over the years – I was constantly seeing him over the years, and, uh, eventually, he died. And, uh, unfortunately, he – there was apparently a parting of the ways with his family, so there was – there was no one there anymore when he died. So, I, uh – I came into possession of his ashes which I didn’t exactly know what to do with (chuckle), you see. They were out in my garage. And so, here was my colleague, you know, up there on the shelf (chuckle), you know, for a long time; and my wife kept wondering, “Well, what are you going to do about these ashes out in the garage?” And I (inaudible), “I just don’t know.” So, uh, finally, another colleague of mine who was also a friend, we got together and said, “We’ve got to do something about this.” And so, uh, we decided that, well, if he were – if he had his way, we thought that he would – Well, first we talked about, uh, putting him into the Yakima River, you know, because he’d been in this area for a long time. A lot of people liked that (inaudible), but he had always said he hated the river, so we decided we wouldn’t do that. Well, he was so close to the university, we decided, well, we need to bury him here, on this campus, but I think that’s against the law. I’m not sure. Even if you actions – I don’t know why it should be, but this colleague of mine, uh, and I decided, “Well, we’d do it anyway.” So, we chose a place, and, uh, we went out at night – in the dark of night (chuckle). You could see these two old characters (chuckle) – we had this other fellow digging up the ground and burying these ashes, which we did; and – And then, later, we were able to get the Board of Trustees to authorize a plaque to be put into the ground for this person. You probably know who I’m talking about. But, uh, anyway, to be put into the ground for him, and, uh – So, there was – The Board of Trustees did authorize it and, uh, people contributed to build this plaque and it was put into the ground; and they had a little ceremony, uh, on the date that this was done. Uh, the president was there and all of the rest of the (inaudible) and everything else; and they had a little table set up with cookies and whatnot. And the cookies were right over where Elwyn was. . .
E.J.: (laughter)
T.K.: (laughter) . . . and no one, except this other colleague and I who kept (inaudible) at each other, you know, thinking, “If only they knew (you know) about this!” But I – I think that’s a good story.
E.J.: I think it’s excellent, and I really appreciate you bringing up Elwyn Odell.
Videographer: Where - Where is the plaque?
T.K.: Well, it’s right on the corner, in front of the Psych building, right in front of the big evergreen tree. If you walk there, it’s on – you know, where that hill goes up, and it’s, uh, it’s a nice plaque.
E.J.: Right. Political Science in that building, as well as Psychology.
T.K.: Right.
E.J.: So – So, it has that title, but Political Science has certainly got high occupancy (inaudible) the whole campus, as we have found, as Business and Education and Math have come in during the time . . .
T.K.: Right. Not very many people though were actually (inaudible)
E.J.: Now that – that story, I think, we really even appreciate handing over to him. And it’s a worthy, worthy story.
T.K.: It’s – It’s wonderful. I think that’s what he would have wanted.
E.J.: Oh, I’m sure he would. He had a sense of humor to go along with it. (chuckle)
T.K.: (chuckle) So, I was just (inaudible) . . .
E.J.: Thank you for that one. Uh, should take a little bit – you’ve done quite a bit in extra curricular events. Were you on the Faculty Senate?
T.K.: Well, I was - I was on the Faculty Senate.
E.J.: Would you give us something of your perception of it? What did you think about the Senate?
T.K.: I never really felt that it was a very effective body; and I must say that when I was on it, uh, I didn’t like it. I did not feel that they were doing anything, so I never really became involved in it. I used to, quite frankly, avoid service, except, being a small department, we had to serve on it from time to time, but I never – I never felt that I really . . .
E.J.: Serving had its ups and downs, and since the code is one of its concerns, what’s your perception of the Faculty Code?
T.K.: Well, again, I don’t really have an opinion on that. It seems adequate to me to describe the rules (inaudible) under various circumstances (inaudible).
E.J.: Uh, how our organization, which incidentally, you’re President of the one who sponsors this . . .
T.K.: I’m Secretary.
E.J.: Secretary. Okay. Alright. Uh, what role do you feel the Retirement Association has in the university?
T.K.: Well, I think a couple of things, uh – Certainly, I do support this particular activity. But I think, basically, it’s keeping former – well keeping retirees in touch with what’s going on at the university, trying to provide them with information. I see mostly that. I think information, provide them with opportunities to meet socially with their old friends. Sometimes it’s very difficult to get together. Uh, I put that much ahead of serving the university. I know there’s some people say, “Well, we should be of service to the university.” I think we’ve done that, personally. I think they owe us something, if you ask me; but mostly I like to see it as social, uh, informational – things that make the enjoyable experiences for retirees. That’s how I see it.
E.J.: Well, I haven’t brought it up very much yet, except in (inaudible) interviews. I think maybe the public would like to know there is such an organization that has sponsored this . . .
T.K.: Well, and we tried to tie it in with other community organizations. What’s the other deal?
E.J.: R.S.V.P.?
T.K.: R.S.V.P. Things like that, although we are doing some joint things. Uh, but mainly, just make people who’ve devoted their lives to this institution, get them feeling that they’re still important and they’re still valued. Uh, and that – uh, you know, we want them to feel a part of the university. I think that’s the main – That’s how I feel, personally feel. Uh, when you’re put out to pasture, that doesn’t mean that you’re not an esteemed person.
E.J.: In our forming of possible questions, uh, we got sort of a word association that – to see if we covered topics. Uh, let me list some of them and would you respond to . . . Uh, what do you think about the faculty’s salary schedule?
T.K.: Well, again, I don’t – I feel that I’ve been well compensated my whole life. I’ve – I really don’t share the same feelings of so many people now that they’re underpaid. I really didn’t expect to make very much money, to start with. And I’ve always thought, “Well, it’s – it’s, you know, a blessing to be doing this work.” The only – there was one thing that initially I wondered about when I came here was that, um – well, compared to State University of New York, they would have steps and then automatic increases each year. Whereas here, of course, it’s discretionary – you know, a merit kind of thing. And I never – I never figured out what merit was it. I always thought – I did well and I have no personal grievance with it. I was – I was lucky in that respect. It had always struck – I was always wondering whether or not favoritism or other kinds of things could come into play. I’d almost like to see, you know, if you have Step A, then each year up to a point – you know, each year you would get an increment or something like that. But, uh, but that’s about the only – In general terms, I was well treated and, again, having been able to actually get paid for what I did is pretty good. It was a good racket.
E.J.: Oh, I enjoy your perception. And historically, interestingly enough, at one time, Tom, what you’re talking about did occur. There were automatic step or half-step, uh, we – I think it was external pressure and you talk so much about the staff and their perception that it was swayed at that point . . .
T.K.: Is that right?
E.J.: . . .which is about when you came, to get rid of all the automatics.
T.K.: Well, I remember I was shocked when I first got here; because I didn’t even bother inquiring about that; and I’d come – well, working in the (inaudible). Same thing. You are in a Step and then, increments each year until you get to the top, uh, Step. I thought that’s the way almost all large organizations function, so that was a bit of a shock. Except for that, certainly – I certainly have felt well compensated.
E.J.: Let me throw out another one to associate on. Um, faculty, uh, administration collegiality.
T.K.: Well, uh, I think collegiality, you know, varies from department to department, of course, and, uh, you mentioned the problem with faculty politics. That runs against collegiality very frequently, and, uh, I’ve often regretted in some ways that – that the department – that the university became so departmentalized. Uh, the people with myself spent virtually their entire career in a department. I often wanted to teach with other people from other departments very frequently; and, uh, the, I think, requirements of the discipline, you know, preclude that and I’ve always regretted that. Uh, because sometimes, especially if you haven’t got the department that’s terribly collegial, there’s some that are – then the department becomes a prison. Uh, and I found that over the years, looking at other departments, (inaudible) they talk about arbitrariness and so forth, on the part of administrators. There can be arbitrariness within departments, too; but there’s no escape, you know. But the collegiality here I think has been fairly robust, I would say, generally.
E.J.: Let me extend that over to a little different perspective – town/gown relationships.
T.K.: Well, um, the only thing that pops into my mind is that sometimes, it’s gotten pretty rocky. And I think that one of the low points, recently, that comes to my mind, was when the local Chamber of Commerce urged people to vote for 601 and so forth, and, uh, clearly against the interest of the college and the university. And I really felt quite offended by that. But, um, I kept feeling that when Jim Brooks was President that the town/gown relationships were a bit better than at other times. Maybe it was just the times; but I think he had a – he had a way about him that ingratiated him, I think, with the local people. He was a pleasant man. I’m not sure if Garrity did quite as well. (inaudible) I’m not sure at all, in that respect.
E.J.: One wonders about the variables – whether him having been a student here once, is a factor or . . .
T.K.: But he’s got a personality that fits. He could be pretty comfortable in the Rotary Club.
E.J.: Mmm-hmm.
T.K.: I think he – maybe I’m being presumptuous there, but he seems so.
E.J.: Appreciate the comment. (inaudible) on the campus, what do you think about long-range planning?
T.K.: Well, I don’t really – I don’t, you know, I don’t have much to say. I’m sure it’s necessary. I’m not sure how much these things are worth it, but I know that this present President seems to be fixated with it. I just don’t (inaudible) on that one.
E.J.: Well, historically, seems – most of them seem to have been filed.
T.K.: Yeah. I don’t – I really – There’s a colossal use of time and money that goes into these things. In fact, what they accomplish, I don’t know.
E.J.: How do you associate about building naming policies?
T.K.: Again, I just don’t – I remember just a couple of days ago, when, uh, the Daily Record was the local publisher, talking about naming this new Science Building after Ivory Nelson. I really had trouble with that. It ruined my dinner (chuckle). But, uh, I’d like to see, personally, you know, if it’s – I’d like to see the library named after Jim Brooks, personally. But I don’t – whatever policy they have, that’s fine.
E.J.: What is it – has been your perception of the publish/perish situation on this campus?
T.K.: Well, I – I didn’t do a lot of publishing. I’ve got one book published. But, my – I always thought my role was a classroom teacher. That’s what I really wanted to do and, uh, in that sense, I think that we may have lost something at this institution when we moved from being a college to a university, you know. To me, a college is a place where you educate young people and give them the skills – the reasoning skills and so forth, to be effective human beings; and, I’ve always thought that to be very honorable. Uh, there’s a place for research, there’s a place for something else; and I think that you need to read. You need to keep up with your field and maybe research is one – certainly it’s one way to do that, but, uh, I know it’s always a problem – how do you reward good teaching? How do you recognize good teaching? But I think – I think we have some pretty good ideas, but I think you have to keep at it, so that it’s balanced. Good teaching is somehow balanced with research, but the more you move into trying to be university – I’m not sure – it’s really, to me, more of a name than anything else. It’s not a – I think this is a college and always thought of it that way. I think our job is to educate. I don’t think this is an institution that advances the frontiers of knowledge that much. That’s something the University of Washington should be doing or something like that. Um, I think that the kind of pose in this way, has, uh, in some ways tried to undercut the teaching function of – that’s just a personal view.
E.J.: That’s what we want. Uh, do you have a perception about academic organization?
T.K.: Again, I steer clear of . . .
E.J.: Well, I’m (inaudible) in with your previous statement.
T.K.: Administrators I stayed clear of. I know they’re always shuffling things around.
E.J.: Do you remember any campus emergencies?
T.K.: Uh, the only ones that come to my mind was when Mount St. Helens blew up or something like that.
E.J.: (inaudible), I think (chuckle). We arrived after them. We were involved in the
T.K.: Oh, that was certainly – although, I know that having come from New York, here, uh, it was very mild, you know, at Central. I thought the students were very, very, uh, well mannered, nowhere nearly as rebellious as they are on the East coast. Most of the students that came to the college that I taught at back there were from New York City. You know, they came up and, uh, they were a pretty aggressive bunch of people, especially in the ‘60’s – especially in Political Science.
E.J.: Yeah, of course.
T.K.: You know, at that time. So, when I came out here, I thought that people were extremely honorable, and, uh, that was a big surprise to me.
E.J.: You thought that a little more pleasurable?
T.K.: Yeah. Well, no, I didn’t. I really wanted to – I liked the activism. You know, nowadays, of course, they look back on the ‘60’s and say, “Those bad old days.” And there were some crazy ideas articulated then, no doubt. Uh, but students were (inaudible) . . .
E.J.: . . . and motivated.
T.K.: . . . and they were – I mean, to learn things. Um . . .
E.J.: What do you feel about – as long as we’re talking about comparing students – uh, pre-college preparation and quality of students who were enrolled?
T.K.: Well, I don’t think that it’s changed a great deal, as far as I can see. (inaudible)
E.J.: Okay. That would lead me to want to express this then. This – I’ve hurried through certain topics. What have I missed, Tom, uh, that you would like to express for history?
T.K.: Well, just some of the things like (inaudible) you know, we got a couple of fellowships when he was here – well, once before he came, but it was good to be here. I had a Political Science Association Fellowship. It gave me a year of working in Congress on the Ways and Means Committee. And then, in the ‘70’s here, a Public Administration Fellowship that I was able to spend working in the office of the Secretary of what was then Health, Education and Welfare.
E.J.: And these were in D.C.?
T.K.: In D.C.
E.J.: Mmm-hmm.
T.K.: Which would add immeasurably to my teaching store. Uh, the thing I’m most proud of, probably, here, is having been chosen as a Distinguished Teaching Professor. That was something that . . .
E.J.: We definitely want to know about . . .
Tech: What year was that?
T.K.: That was 1991. But I – that, to me, was the nicest thing that’s happened at Central and I’ll always be grateful for that.
E.J.: I can certainly understand why that would be the high point, and well deserved.
T.K.: Well, it was just a wonderful honor. It just meant more to me as the years go by than – than anything.
E.J.: Well, it fits in with your philosophy that teaching is . . .
T.K.: Well, it was. There are many other great teachers, of course, that feel the same way, who don’t get that recognition; and so, for me, it was kind of a vindication of what I stood for. It’s extremely fortunate when something like that actually happens.
E.J.: And the fact that you tie in the fact that you had these fellowships and utilized those to enhance your teaching. Probably did the same thing about your publication of your book? Tying that in with instruction. Well, it has been a real pleasure and informative.
T.K.: Well, sometimes you wonder what have you got to say, you know, but, uh . . .
E.J.: I feel your interview has been among the most valuable.
T.K.: Oh. Okay. Well thank you both. It’s been wonderful.
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