CENTRAL WASHINGTON LIVING HISTORY PROJECT

ALAN BERGSTROM

Interviewer: Milo Smith

Smith: The interview today is with Dr. Alan Bergstrum, lovingly known as Bud, and interestingly enough your interviewer went to College with Dr., Bergstrom. Al, will you give us a little bit of a fill-in as to when you were born, where you grew up, where you went to school, and so forth?

Bergstrom: I was born May 9, 1927 in Sandpoint, Idaho. Resided there until I was three years old, moved to Elk River, Idaho. The Depression hit in the ‘30’s there when I was about 5 years old. Back to Sandpoint, and I started public school there in the first grade. Then I moved to Deer Park, Washington, where I continued in public school, and then to Clarkston, Washington, where I completed public school, graduating in 1945. 1 have two brothers... mother and father and two brothers. My brother Dwayne, older than myself, got a degree from W.S.U. in Hotel Management. Then my younger brother, he didn’t go to college. He became engaged in the lumber business. He’s now retired and my brother Dwayne is retired. I got married in 1949 to a lovely lady named Barbara (?) whom I met at W.S.U, and I lost her about a year ago.

Smith: Now, Al, will you fill us in on your higher education after you graduated from Clarkston High School, where did you go?

Bergstrom: I went to Northern Idaho College of Education my first year, transferred to W.S.U., anticipating that I was going to be on a golf team. They recruited me to play on a golf team. The eve of our going to the University of Oregon to play our first match, I was called in, said I was ineligible. I was ineligible because I’d transferred from a smal1er school to a Big-Ten School. I had to wait out a year. Well, they didn’t tell me that when I transferred. I’m glad they didn’t because then I met my wife. But the next year then I went back to Northern Idaho College of Education and continued and got my BA Degree in Education. After that I taught for two years down in Burns, Oregon, then moved to Sunnyside, Washington, taught until 1960, then transferred to Central Washington University. Do you want to know what I did at Central Washington University?

Smith: Well, Where did you go to school after your Bachelor’s?

Bergstrom: After my Bachelor’s degree, I started my Master’s Program while I was teaching in Sunnyside, Washington, coming up on weekends or doing night school. One summer I drove up and back with another fellow who was working on his Master’s Degree. Completed my academic work and then was recruited by a Bill Rannieger to teach at their Elementary School, and finish my Master’s Degree by the first of the year, and then after two years of teaching at Hebeler Elementary School, Bill Rannieger, who had a good deal of influence on me, said, “Bergstrom, you need to go to get your Doctorate.” I said, “Oh, I’m not, I don’t think I’m ready.” He said, “You need to go get your Doctorate.” And so I said, “Well, what’ll I do?” And he said, “Well, you get your resume together, send it off to different schools. Say that you’re interested in their Elementary Ed. Program, interested in becoming a reading specialist, and send it off” So I did. The first person through was Dean (?Catterley) from W.S.U., and said we want you up here. We’re starting a program. It’s the first year we’re going to include Elementary Education and want you to be our first student. They probably had recruited others, though, but among our first students I should say. And he said we’ll give you a fellowship-type of thing, teaching assistantship for the years that you are there. I also had an offer from Oklahoma University, and a couple I sent off didn’t have Elementary Ed. Programs, so being close to the Northwest, my relatives and so forth, I accepted the one from W.S.U. and did not regret it. Then after that, I was on leave from Central Washington University and came back, and taught, moved out of Hebeler, went over to the Education Department when, I think at that time, Bill Floyd was the Chairman. Is that right now?

Smith: Very Possibly. All right, what was your assignment after you went to the Department? What kinds of things were you involved in teaching?

Bergstrom: Yeah, I suppose as most of the initiates are, of course, was the Introduction to Education. Then 1 had several Reading Classes because I had studied the teaching of reading at W.S.U. under Dr. Dorothy (?Hagge), who I admired. And teaching of Elementary School Arithmetic, and eventually into teaching the Methods-Materials Course, which I thoroughly enjoyed. And then becoming, handling the practicums for the students who were either going out, or had completed... going into student teaching or had completed their student teaching. At the graduate level I started teaching Introduction to Graduate Studies.

Smith: While you were teaching at Hebeler, Al, did you hold academic rank at that time?

Bergstrom Yes, I had Assistant Professor. I was given one year to finish my Master’s Degree. I told them I would because I had all the academic work, and knew what I wanted to do and conducted what we call action research in my classroom while I was at, my first year at Hebeler Elementary School.

Smith: And what was your rank at the time you retired?

Bergstrom Professor of Education.

Smith: Full Professor?

Bergstrom: Full Professor.

Smith: Good enough. All right, now, simply for the record, the years you arrived at Central, the years you departed from Central, give us that bracket.

Bergstrom: I arrived at Central, you mean as an instructor?

Smith: Yes.

Bergstrom: ... 1960, started in the Fall of 1960, and retired June 30th, 1983.

Smith: Now, will you explain, for the record, how come you retired at apparently an age earlier than most people retire from Central?

Bergstrom: Well, I think, I’ll be honest with you, I retired because I felt I wasn’t keeping up with the field, and when I got that feeling I said, simply, I’m eligible for retirement and maybe, I don’t think I was burned out, but I wasn’t satisfied with what I was doing to continue my keeping up in the field. And I was spending, at that time I had a class at night, off campus, and then about every other week end I would have a workshop some place in the state. And I guess I just didn’t have the time, or the incentive at that particular time to continue on.

Smith: You were able to, I suppose, keep some of your retirement funds in the public school’s system at the same time you were teaching at Central. Were you able to?

Bergstrom: I had no choice, but, and that’s going to be one of my contentions, I had no choice but to, it was allowed, to say, to teach and contribute to the teachers’ retirement system of the State for two years until I got fully vested, then without any option , they transferred me over to TIAA-CREF.

Smith: And you did not like that?

Betgstrom: I was indifferent because this is what they said I had to do. I enjoyed my job, and I wanted to continue to work here and they didn’t much of an issue of it. But later on several individuals, I guess it was maybe fifteen years later, other individuals had been done the same way, and they found out that we were supposed to have been given an option as to whether we wanted to continue on into the teachers’ retirement system, or transfer over to the TIAA-CREF. And since there were between, Gosh, I think, between fifty and sixty people who had no option and by two Attorney Generals’ opinions, this was illegal on the part of the College and they had to rectify it. And so then they had to give us a choice whether wanted to go back into teachers’ retirement and/or continue on with TIAA-CREF. Well, the first thing that became an issue was. well, will TIAA-CREF return the monies that they had received from the individual faculty member and the matching funds from the State back to the State? And they agreed to do so. So some of us then opted to go back into teachers’ retirement system.

Smith: Al, do you think that Central’s misinterpretation of the law, cost you money in the end?

Bergstrom: No.

Smith: It didn’t.

Bergstrom: No, no, it was the agony as to knowing whether we were going to be able to transfer, or continue on in TIAA-CREF. We could have continued on TIAA-CREF hut we wanted transfer back to teachers’ retirement system for the State of Washington. And it was a better system for those of us who were in and had vested ourselves for ten years in the retirement system in the State of Washington.

Smith: Al, Did you teach in any other Departments while you were on campus?

Bergstrom: No.

Smith: How about serving on various committees?

Bergstrom: I served on the Teacher Education Committee, and I think it was the undergraduate committee that was involved in what was a liberal education. I don’t know what they call that committee now.

Smith: Now, something that we have to ask everybody, what problems do you recall as having been of some significance, and you determine what’s the problem during those years that you were serving here on campus.

Bergstrom: Well, I think one of the things that, I thought very highly of the teacher preparation program and they had two things that I thought contributed, significantly to the establishment of the reputation that Central had before I got here, and hopefully continued on after I made it here, I did contribute something, and that was the Laboratory School in which the Professors in the Department in Black Hall were teaching theory courses and so forth and then if they wanted a demonstration of some kind of what they meant by teaching either analytically or synthetically, or whatever it may be, then they could come over to Hebeler Elementary School and ask us if we might set up a lesson and that their class might come over and observe us as we were teaching the lesson and then after the lesson they/we’d have a kind of question and answer. And I thought that was very effective. I think one of the problems that arose, of course, was funding so they thought it was not cost effective, I guess, kind of an operation as, even though we saw it as being very, a practical thing. I guess a precedent was, had been started across the United States to phase out the laboratory schools. Now in the State of Washington, it was my understanding that every student who went to Hebeler received what ever they were paying for the students in the public schools to attend school through appropriation through the Legislature. And I think that was not that expensive for Central to have a laboratory school. I think that was one of the things, and then the other thing, they had a very effective program on I thought, which was intended to be a part of the fifth year program, and probably sold the fifth year program for certification in which the teachers, first year teachers would go off, they would teach and then somebody from, one or two from the College could go and they’d observe the person teaching. They’d talk with the person about what or, some of the kinds of problems they were having. What were their successes, and how would they offer to change the under-graduate program so they could be a better teacher. And in their fifth year what could we do to help you to improve and strengthen your strengths if we can and also to help you with making you feel more comfortable with your weaknesses. And then we could plan what you’d receive as your fifth year program. That again was, met the chopping block and I think, not only, it didn’t come as effective as we thought it would when it was initiated because soon colleges, I don’t know if it was from the colleges, or whoever it was maybe it was the State Education Department, allowed almost any classes to account for the twenty-two and a half elective classes that you could take. You had to go 22, I think it was, professional, and then you had electives for 22 and a half, and they were unidentified, and those were the ones that we were working with and trying, and said, “Well, hey, You said that you were having trouble in teaching synthetically, or using that kind of approach, or as appropriate, we’ll design something for you.” And it went by the way-side after, I think, about three years.

Smith: Now, Al, for many, many years Central had been absolutely, and primarily a teacher education school. After Dr. Brooks came, the school gradually began to shift over and the emphasis was distributed between teacher education and liberal arts. Did you feel that the school had discontinued its full support of teacher education? Were you sensitive to the change?

Bergstrom: Well, I don’t know from the level, I know they wanted to attract more individuals, other than those who were perspective teachers and, I think that they should’ve. But I don’t know whether like Dr. Brooks and the Deans and so forth, set out to actually temper the Education Department in an attempt, .. . and spend some time with the Academic Departments, so to speak, and help improve their programs. Well, I think, on campus there were some individuals and faculty who said one of the ways we can do this is to temper the reputation of the Education Department. And there-by, and I think this had happened after Brook’s administration. And I saw the collegiality we had, I felt when I was first here in which we were a co-operating group, the Administration, the Deans, the Chairmen, and the Departments and continuing this really excellent program. After Dr. Brooks and some of the new Presidents came in, I think it was slowly removed to an adversarial role between the faculty and the Administration, but not the Chairmen of the Departments, and so forth. And I think this is one of the things that happened and we lost, I saw a serious erosion of the morale of a faculty on campus, and not only in the Education Department, but in the other departments.

Smith: Al, I’ve wondered for years, the answer to this next question, at any time were you ever asked to consider being the coach of the golf team at Central? Since you have a background in golf.

Bergstrom: No. I was never asked because they realized that if you were going to be a golf teacher, one of the things that you must be able to do is to help people learn how to putt. Sony they wouldn’t ask me because I didn’t have that proficiency.

Smith: Now, you taught in a Department on campus that had some of our more famous clowns, like Sam Rust and Ham Howard, do you recall any humorous events in those years that you were teaching? Humorous events in or out of the Department?

Bergstrom: Wow! Well, they seemed to be all, or primarily almost personal kinds of things that happened in the class room. I recall one fellow that was involved in this kind of thing, that I was teaching a class and I was a little over-anxious in one of my demonstrations and in my suit and I didn’t realize I had a seam or two that were coming apart and I ripped my pants open and I continued the class because I didn’t think anyone knew any thing about it, but I was facing the class instead of turning to the chalkboard and the bell was to ring in three or four minutes and when the bell rang, well, they sat there. I said, “Well, the bell rang, you better go to your next class.” They sat there, and then I realized, yes, they probably had picked up on that I had ripped the seat of my pants out, so I said, “The heck with you guys.” Grabbed the seat of my pants and Ijust walked into my room. Now. there’s something else that happened there. I did have, I knew somebody had a needle and thread and I called them on the phone and they brought the needle and thread over, but they didn’t lock my door. I thought, I had to unlock the door so they could get in and so forth, and I didn’t relock it. Sitting there sewing up my pants and I heard a knock on the door and I didn’t say anything. I heard somebody going away and I continued my sewing, my pants are off because I can’t reach where I had ripped out, I’m not that kind of a contortionist. Any way, sitting there with my lights out and the door opens, and in walks this girl. And she looked at me and I looked at her and she turned around and walked out. I just sat there.

Smith: How long do you suppose it took that story to get around campus? Now, Al, you mentioned a moment ago that Bill Rannieger, over in Hebeler Elementary School was a considerable influence in your life, who else in your Department, or on campus, did you consider significant in your career as a teacher?

Bergstrom: I think Dr. Wes Crum was one. I thoroughly respected him and I thought he was thoroughly honest with you, and if he said something, that was his word, and I really did respect him. But I have a number of individuals here and I’ll leave out the present people because they don’t need any more accolades. But I’ll just run down... Sherrie Chrysler, Glenn Madsen, Daryl Basler, Dean Nicholson, Doris Jakubek, Bob Canton, Bill Rannieger, Jim Brooks, Byron DeShaw, Larry Lowther, Mike Arcidiacono, Larry Danton, Wayne Hertz, Ron Boles, and there were probably some others, but those are the ones that I had a great deal of respect for, and there’re others that I left out.

Smith: You’re either very kind, or lacking in a sense of discrimination.

Bergstrom: Well, these were just personal things.

Smith: Have you memories of problems which existed between the teaching faculty and the Administration?

Bergstrom: Yeah. I think on two occasions that come to my mind, now they don’t have to be actually involved in the instruction, not that, but had to do with the developing personal relationships with the faculty, and one of them had to do with retirement in which the new President came in and he had NO, nothing to do with what had happened, but when we went over to discuss this with him, he said, “You don’t have a leg to stand on.” And he took an adversarial role in between us and the fact they were trying to rectify this thing that happened to us when we weren’t given the option of choosing our retirement system. And so that was kind of a sore spot with me, and a sore spot with about fifly or sixty other people. That somebody would take that adversarial role, instead of saying, “Hey, I’ve got to get on this with you and, let’s roll and we’ll get down, we’ll get through this and we’ll change that, we’ll rectify it.” That wasn’t the case. The other thing that really came to my mind was being one that I felt, other people were involved, and this is my own personal opinion and observation, was the Dean Nicholson affair. Dean Nicholson was one of the most honest forthright individuals, and one who had a great deal of influence on a number of people who might have gone by the way-side and gone into the criminal route, might I say? Or some other outlet, but would not be making the contribution to our society that they are today. And, hey, the thing that he did, while it was, maybe, against a certain rule or something like this, but was to no personal benefit of himself. I’m under the understanding that what, he had these work shops he did not take a salary for, that he put these monies into a fund to help the individuals who were coming to campus, he was influencing their lives, changing their lives, rightfully they wer.e, they had some athletic ability, or he would call them in, or coach them. But I’m sure he had influence on other people that were in his classes that I’m not aware of, and I look at him and say, “Now, would I do that?” Now, I suspect that they were a part of the program endorsed by Central that this could have been part of his salary, and it could have been included as part of his retirement, and if he was making $5,000.00 a summer for this, I’m just using that figure, I..., that would cost him something like $3,000.00 on retirement, or two hundred and some odd dollars a month, each month that he was retired. To me this is a very, very unselfish individual who was doing great things for a large number of students. And I say large because I think when you’re working with 20-25 students and you’re affecting their lives, you’re doing an admirable job.

Smith: You bet. I think many of us feel the same as you. Now, do you recall any particular, significant problems that arose between the faculty and the student body?

Bergstrom: Oh, the one that comes to my mind was the situation which I think was primarily such as given to the TV station at Yakima and they came up and embellished a, I think it was something that had to do with race relations. Am I right? Yes, that’s what it was. And I thinKthat was completely blown out of proportion by the fact that it was happening at other campuses and we had two or three little incidents here which would have happened among Swedes, they happen among Indians, they happen among Orientals, they happen among Englishmen, and so forth, and Italians, and so forth, and so I think that, but I’m not sure how much it affected the relationships between the students and the faculty.

Smith: Now, Al, something that we have all held very dear was something that we called academic freedom, at any time that you were teaching on this campus did you feel that your class room was influenced from the outside, or were you king in your class room?

Bergstrom: Well, I had academic freedom. I think that we were allowed to do, and maybe we did try some of the extremist kinds of things and I’m not sure what that would have been, at that particular time, or what it would be now, but, yes, I felt I had academic freedom. And I could discuss things, and... oh, that brings back another little humorous incident. When we had a seminar and were discussing things. The students were assigned (?) and got to select a topic they wanted to investigate as far as what should be included in the curriculum. And this little naive girl, I don’t think she said too much in the seminars, but decided she wanted to investigate sex and how they were handling this in the public schools, and so forth, and where it began, where did they start teaching it, and etc., etc., etc. Well, she came up to give her report, at this time I happened to be about 54, she got up, she gave a very excellent report (?)...She said, “You know one thing?” She said, “1 found out people after fifty had sex!” I jumped up and said, “Yippee!”

Smith: Now, Al, let’s go to a list of short topics down, I think you have them at the bottom of the page, things that you can react to. I asked you already to react to academic freedom. How about the salary schedule at Central?

Bergstrom: Well, you’re probably asking the wrong person. When I was hired by Central, I got approximately 30% more than I was getting in the public schools primarily because I was able to teach during the summertime. And so, as far as salary and it being commensurate with the four year, well, University of Washington, W.S.U., I guess I felt that theirs needed, might be a little higher, and rightfully so. But I know I had no problem with it.

Smith: Now, our lives as instructors on this campus were pretty well dictated to some extent by the faculty code. Did you ever participate in any way in the renditions and up-dating of the faculty code? Did you feel it was a fair document representing the jobs we were expected to perform?

Bergstrom: Not as a committee member of the faculty code. But as we worked in our individual Departments, I discussed it, and so forth. But I had no problem with it.

Smith: How about the Faculty Senate? Did you feel that this was a good representational body?

Bergstrom: I did think it was representative, somewhat proportionally I think some because they were very small Departments and each Department was allowed a representative that they were disproportionate because of the size of the Department. But I thought that the, my experience, that the Faculty Senate was quite often shackled by the Administration. And that they had some very excellent suggestions, and so forth, that were almost dictatorial and they, (?).

Smith: I suppose that we all had trouble recognizing that as faculty members we really didn’t have a significant decision position when it came to comparison with the Administration, and we were jealous, I suppose, of the fact that we did not have what was kicked around the campus, “Collegiality”.

Bergstrom: That’s what I, when I first came here I thought that we did that we had a lot more opportunity to cooperate, to make decisions and be heard and influence some of the decisions that were made by those who I call the administration of the College, above the Chairmen. But then, I think, and I think we felt very good about that, even with Dr. Brooks. But I think after that it began to be eroded seriously.

Smith: Did you have any opportunity, Al, to observe the “Town-Gown” relationships?

Bergstrom: Oh, yes.

Smith: Any strain there?

Bergstrom: I thought that they were fairly cooperative. I think, the gown did not accept the town as well as the town accepted the gown. That’s some individuals. I think we have at any College that some people think that they were a little bit above the people who were down-town. That they were cowboys that had little stuff on their shoes and so forth, didn’t quite, they felt, the education that they had.

Smith: Are you satisfied, or were you satisfied, Al, with the building naming policies at Central?

Bergstrom: I have no comment about that.

Smith: OK. How about the academic organization? Now, I’m sure that in those years you were here, you saw the campus re-organize, and re-organize, and re-organize. We had divisions as well as, later we had schools. How did you feel about the academic organization?

Bergstrom: Well, I’ll have to be honest with you. I was not very involved in that. And probably had not as much of a reaction to the way they were organized as other Departments. I felt that sometimes that the allocations of the assets and the allocation of the faculty, and that faculty-student ratio sometimes we were given a little more, higher ratio, 60 to 1,20 to 1, whatever it was.

Smith: Al, fortunately at Central there has never been a dictation as far as “Publish, or Perish”. There has been some concern among faculty people that, whether they were given fair treatment when their research was equated with class room teaching and vice versa. How did you feel during your years here?

Bergstrom: Well, I think I had a feeling that we really weren’t a research oriented type of a college. I think you have your research colleges which get a great deal of their money from grants and (?), and so forth, and so I just didn’t feel that the research that people were doing probably, should equate to class room. It’d probably be equated to a class or something of that nature.

Smith: Was it ever of any particular concern in the Ed. Department when it came to consideration for promotion, consideration for tenure, consideration for merit increases?

Bergstrom: Well, let me say this. I was never, I guess, I wasn’t much in on the Committee that decided merit. But that the decision was primarily based upon what I thought was our major activity in, at the college, that was to produce good teachers and be good role models for the students that were in your classroom and try to prepare them the best way that you knew how to prepare them. So if the committee actually didn’t like the way you were doing it that left, I think, most of them felt that they were getting a fairly excellent teacher preparation program at Central. And so,.. .No, I think, the teaching was the number one element that indicated whether you were going to get a merit, or whether you were going to get recommended for promotion. And advising students, a very, very serious program. I often took some .. . Well, negative feelings about students coming from, not, they were not in the Teacher Education Program, but would come over to people in the Education Department because they heard they got good advisement over there. And I suppose Ham, and I know of a number of others of us who would take other students who were transferring in, and advise them. If they had an advisor, or they couldn’t get to the advisor, or the advisor’s advised this and so forth, and some they would be distraught, and come over and we’d take over the advising of the students. Now, Is that true and it meant ,. . . and I felt that was a.. .that we would... I think most of us in the Education Department, and in other Departments felt that, there were some that I think felt the other way, felt that we were here because of the students, and that the students weren’t here because of us.

Smith: OK. Now, Al, through your tenure at Central, I know that there were several times when there was some agitation on campus for unionizing. Did you ever participate in one of those drives? Did you feel that we needed a teachers’ union on campus?

Bergstrom: No.

Smith: Simple answer.

Bergstrom: No, I didn’t feel that we needed a teachers’ union on campus. I’ve had some relationships with unions as my dad was a manager of a mill in Burns, Oregon and I’d worked for him, and some of the restraints they actually put on him to manage, and I felt, maybe, that might happen here in our Departments, so to speak. Because I’m not sure but what the chairmen might eventually have to become an adversary, be placed in an adversarial role, and I didn’t think that should happen. I liked the idea of the collegiate role that we all had at one time.

Smith: Al, did you ever have an opportunity to develop any new courses while you were in the Department, and what kind of courses were you free to develop?

Bergstrom: Well, let’s put it, that, I think, programs had...had an opportunity to develop some programs. And we had actually, had an opportunity to develop, let’s say, Introduction to Education, and work with other people who were teaching that course. Also, the Methods and Materials, and making some changes in it, so that it was, what we thought was more practical, but the Elementary Ed. Program and Teacher Preparation Program, the last thing, I think we did was chair a group that was going to alter and change the Teacher Preparation Program for Elementary School Teachers, and we had an across campus committee, and we developed one, and it was implemented, I think, the year after I left. And I’m not sure whether they’re still using it, or not, but it heavily emphasized that the Academic Departments would have more in-put into the preparation of the Elementary School Teacher. Which I felt that they should have.

Smith: Now, I’m going to ask you a terrible question right off of the sheet, but we might arouse some interesting answer. Are there programs or activities on the campus that you feel are not justified on a University campus?

Bergstrom: Oh...

Smith: You may, or may not remember that we had a particular Dean on campus a number of years ago who went so far as to make a list on, this is in the Liberal Arts, he made a list of Departments and courses that he did not feel belonged on a University campus because of his estimation they lacked purity as an academic area. Did you feel that we were getting into Mickey Mouse Courses, we were getting far too practical? How did you feel about that?

Bergstrom: I might say that I had a feeling that maybe there were some faculty members and administrators who were not conducive to constructing a very effective higher education program, or being involved in one. Now, there were also some classes that I certainly didn’t feel were necessary when I was in Liberal Arts that some individual said this is, everyone should have this course. It might be something like, oh, a course on Chaucer. And I don’t know.., that we were more general, rather than specifically, or should be.

Smith: Do you ever, do you have relatives who are graduates of Central? Or...

Bergstrom: Kevin, J have a son who is.

Smith: Pardon?

Bergstrom: I have a son, Kevin, who graduated from Central.

Smith: Good. Good.

Bergstrom: And my daughter, Janet, she graduated from Western.

Smith: Western? What is that?

Bergstrom: Uh, that’s another Teacher Education College.

Smith: Oh, that is. OK, now are there areas that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to record an opinion or an attitude, or facts for history? This is going to be preserved.

Bergstrom: I would just say that I was very, very happy with my tenure here. It had a tremendous number of very talented individuals, and was very happy to be associated with them. I never thought that in my life that I would have this opportunity, and I did, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I had a tendency to overlook individuals that I had a negative feeling toward. I said, well, in those statistics you’re going to have a little bell-curve here and there are going to be some here that you’re not going to like at all, but I tried not to let that affect me at all. But I was very happy here, and was very happy with most of the people that I encountered. Very happy with most of the administrators, but several I was not.

Smith: Al, there has been an attitude in this town, on this campus, in this State, that the best students always go to the University and to Washington State, and that the Teacher Education Institutions, the smaller schools, get what’s left over. Did you feel you got inferior students in your classes?

Bergstrom: Well, not generally, no. I felt I got in my classes the students who did work dedicated to going to the best teacher education program in the state. and there were some that, fortunately we were able to screen out, by the Teacher Education Test, or by the fact that they weren’t doing very well in the classes, but no, I think we had people who when they made up their mind they wanted to go into teaching, when they were sophomores in high school, or something to that nature, that they simply said, “Well, which one do I want to go to, and they’d heard a lot about Central, and they had heard about Eastern, attended part of the state you were in, and Western Washington and they wanted to go to those schools.

Smith: I think in my years here, let’s see if you thought the same, the biggest difference I saw between the students that I know went to the University and Washington State, as opposed to Central, was most commonly the economic bracket the student had been raised in, rather than their accomplishments in the public school system, that we got very good students from homes that might not have been able to afford it at Washington State, or at the University.

Bergstrom: Oh, I’m sure of that, but I’m also sure that if a number of these students had had the wherewithal, the means, the economic means to go to those other colleges, they would still have chosen Central, or would have chosen Western, or would have chosen Eastern.

Smith: OK, we’re about at the end. What would you like to.. .What good words would you like to leave to posterity?

Bergstrom: To posterity. Well, I would like to leave the words that, I think, that hope that Central continue on with their mission. I have admiration for, two other Departments in, that I’m familiar with, that I felt set out to establish their own reputation and not at the expense of the Education, this being an Education College, and had an inter-national, a national reputation, I’m speaking of the Music Department and of the Business Department. I think they have really made great strides in attracting well qualified and good students here who go off and do a good job in business and etcetera.

Smith: Have you been permitted most of your academic life to the philosophy of worthy use of leisure time?

Bergstrom: No. I started out even before I got to college believing that!

Smith: Well, thank you very much, Al.