CWU LIVING HISTORY PROJECT

JAMES HOGAN

INTERVIEWER: JEAN PUTNAM

TECHNICTION: BOB JONES

Putnam: This is another interview for the Central Washington University Living History Project. The interviewee is James Hogan, who was a member of the Board of Trustees from 1977 to 1985. The interviewer is Jean Putnam, and the camera and audio tape operator is Bob Jones. The date is March 20, 1997, and the meeting is held in the Teacup room of Barge Hall. I’d like to start by asking you a question, James. I’d like to have you start by giving us, sort of, a personal history of your life before serving on the Board, I mean it doesn’t have to be every, all the details, but give us a general view of where you came from and that sort of thing, up to...

Hogan: First, I was born...

Putnam: Yes.

Hogan: August first, 1923, San Diego, California. About a year later my sister came into the world, and I don’t know when, but we moved from San Diego, California to Buffalo, New York, and I lived in Buffalo until I was bout age twelve. Then we came to Yakima, Washington. By my name Hogan, you realize I could be a Roman Catholic, and at that time I lived a very good Roman Catholic, and I attended the parochial school systems in Buffalo. And I came to Yakima, and I came prepared for the first day of school, about the fifth or sixth grade, and I came with my shoes shined, my knickerbockers on, my socks pulled up, and a shirt and tie. And these country boys in Yakima thought they had a sissy on their hands, and after about five fights that day, during the day, these kids didn’t know how to fight, so I was welcomed. The biggest kid in class put his arm around my shoulder and said, “Boy, those sure are neat football pants.” Then I graduated from Marquette High School in Yakima, 1942, and the Congress of the United States of America at that time was talking about the G.I. Bill, and I didn’t have parents that could afford to send me to college, so I volunteered for the Service. I graduated June seventh, 1942, and I was Private Hogan June seventeenth, 1942 in Wichita Falls, Texas. I was in the Army Air Corps. in October twenty-seventh, 1945 1 was discharged as a Staff-sergeant, crew chief from the United States Army Air Corps. In March of ‘46 I was a freshman in Gonzaga University, Spokane, Washington, and I graduated in 1952 from Gonzaga. 1 had a wife and three children, and I passed the Bar Exam, and I came to Yakima and I practiced Law for a number of years. And one year a Governor by the name of Dixie Lee Ray was elected, and she had the audacity to pull the appointment of every person that the previous Governor had appointed and hadn’t been confirmed by the Senate. And that caught Central Washington University flatfooted. Their Board of Trustees was wiped out, and she was desperate. She needed any live body to be appointed. She selected some pretty good people. I don’t count myself as one of those pretty good people. I just wrote a letter...said I was available, and she appointed me. I was on the Board for eight and a half years. And as I pointed out earlier, I used to hate Ellensburg with a passion, but my work with the Central Washington University softened my attitude toward Ellensburg, and I just loved my tenure here at Central Washington. And the best part of it was graduation day. Ah! That was worth it,

Putnam: Well, now tell us, what were your beginning and ending dates of your service?

Hogan: I think March of 1977, and I’m not sure when it was ended. It was eight and a half years later.

Putnam: Eight and a half years later.

Hogan: ‘85. I’m embarrassed that I’ve forgotten the name of the Trustee from Ellensburg. He owned the Title Company. He was a neat man. (?)

Putnam: I forget who that was, because I was here teaching at that time.

Hogan: Neat person.

Putnam: Yeah, right. We’re going to stop for just a minute...We’ve got a problem with the recorder. . . .0K, Well, let’s continue here. I think our equipment is working. Now, you say that you were appointed under Dixie Lee Ray under rather interesting circumstances, and who was/were the University Presidents, or the President at the time you came?

Hogan: The President was James Brooks.

Putnam: OK.

Hogan: That’s the only President...(?)

Putnam: Right, so you...

Hogan: The Vice-president was Edward Harrington.

Putnam: OK. So you came in under President Brooks’ term.

Hogan: I need to say something about Brooks. He did a magnificent job of bringing the

Board up to speed. He was faced with a Board...a brand new Board. There was Linda

Clifton, and there was Sterling Munro, a man from Yakima, and from Ellensburg, let’s

see.. .And Thomas Gaibreath from Tacoma.

Putnam: And there were five on the Board at that time. Right. Now when you came on to the Board what did you perceive as your charge?

Hogan: Support the University. And any time I have an opportunity, I talk to my State Representatives, or State Senators. Putnam: What were the major issues, maybe some of the problems that were confronting the University at the time?

Hogan: I believe at that time, I believe up to this date that the budget of the State of Washington was balanced on the back of higher education’s back. We were cutting, always cutting the budget, the local budget, and we were mandated by the Governor, and it wasn’t only true of Dixie. But it was also true of(?)...I can’t think of...John. I think, a Republican. (?)

Putnam: Evans? Not Dan Evans?

Hogan: No, He was before Dixie.

Putnam: Oh, yes, Booth Gardner(?).

Hogan: No, it was a Republican. He’d been the Executive of King County.

Putnam: I should know that, too. But… whatever. So you perceived basically that everything really, pretty much focused on the budget and lack of funding, and what we were going to do about it. And I’m not going to take these all in order, because you had mentioned right at the beginning of your term, you were involved with being on the Search Committee for the new President. Didn’t that happen the year after you arrived?

Hogan: (?)No, the Search Committee had already been organized by Brooks.

Putnam: Oh, OK.

Hogan: And Brooks then submitted his resignation, and he took on (?), who was replaced by whoever the President was going to be. And Brooks, I kind of felt sorry for him. I think he had been in the trenches for seventeen years, and I think that his stay was, how could I say this, un-welcome. He was there too long, and I think he was sitting on a barrel of dynamite that was getting ready to explode. And he was a nice man, a good man, and a good educator, I believe. And took his job seriously, and I’ve got nothing but praise for him...

Putnam: Good.

Hogan: ...Because he did a magnificent job.

Putnam: So you had really no relationship to the Search Committee as they searched for the new President?

Hogan: During the course of our business with the Search Committee, we did not get involved ‘till they had reduced the number of applicants to four or five, and we sat down with the Search Committee, and Dean Burton Williams was on it, and along with an ex-football coach named Abe...

Putnam: Abe Poffenroth.

Hogan: Yes, What a dear soul. Hc was an intelligent and articulate man, and he didn’t take a back seat to anybody on that committee, especially Burt. There was even a student on that particular committee. I think the committee overwhelmed the student. The student wasn’t really involved. He was there as a token I think. We went down... we interviewed a candidate from San Francisco State, Linda Clifton and I went down (here and interviewed Don Garrity and Virginia. And I think Don was right. He says, “I’m going to accept this appointment, I want (?).“ And I agree with him. We were invited to have dinner at Cyrano De Bergerac’s on 4000 Geary St. in San Francisco with the Garritys. And to Linda and me he says, “Hogan, this is just a local place. You won’t see anyone you know.” Well, Don is a pretty sophisticated fellow, and he meant what he said at the time, but lo and behold there was somebody that I knew from Yakima, Washinaton in the restaurant. He came over and introduced himself, and we had a little chat. And Garrity was very surprised. Out of nowhere, I would know someone, and then we concluded our business and came home. And then another time Sterling Munro and I went to Buffalo, New York, there was a woman, I think her name was (?), I’m not sure. She had a Polish name, (?)... We didn’t interview her, but we did interview a lot of people that knew her and liked her, and then we spent a real hard day at it. Then the next day was St. Patrick’s Day in Washington, D.C., and Sterling and I decided to go to Washington, D.C., and go to a party for the Irish. Everyone in Washington, D.C. on St. Patrick’s Day drank, and we went to the National Democratic Club. And we met...There was a party hosted by the Attorney for Chicago. He was the leading lobbyist for the city of Chicago. I was introduced by Sterling as James Aloysius Hogan. That was in keeping with James Aloysius Moriarty.

Putnam: Getting back to President Garrity, you know, he was selected, and what were your perceptions, or your opinion of his skills and capabilities as you served under, or with him, not under him, but...?

Hogan: We like to think that he was under us...

Putnam: Yes, right. He was serving under you. Yes, right, you like to think that. No, what was your perception of his skills and capabilities as President?

Hogan: I think they were very fortunate to have a man of his caliber at that time. And I think he did a magnificent job. He sure bounced the President’s salary up to a reasonable sum. He made the office itself attractive to high quality candidates. And I think he did a good job that I could see. I think he might have over-stayed his term, but there are jealousies, you know, within in an institute, and there’s a certain amount of back-stabbing, a living institute, whether it’s the United States Army, U.S. Navy, Marine Corps, or Central Washington University. It is the living institute, and the players come upon the stage and are on it for a time, they too pass on. As Bob might be a retired professor here, and you, I know, retired, and I was tired.

Putnam: Did you, do any other names of any other administrators or people come to mind that you are aware of that might have been...

Hogan: I was impressed with Pappas. I was impressed with Jones, and Don Schliesman. I was impressed with the other Jones. The Gail Jones...

Putnam: Gail Jones. and the first Jones you’re speaking of was Courtney?

Hogan: Courtney. And who else?

Putnam: Why do you pick them out? What skills did they seem to have that you thought were...

Hogan: They were professionals. They were pros, and they were high caliber people that... I was impressed. I don’t think I’m naive. I think I was impressed with their skills. I liked Byrd. I thought he was funny. Ex-Marine, (?). And the one who threw down the gauntlet so many times, finally was embarrassed when they picked the gauntlet up, (?)...

Putnam: Did you find that your service as a Trustee invited any pressures from, say political parties, legislators, citizen groups, or university groups, that were trying to get to you?

Hogan: The University groups were all trying to get to you, but the legislators weren’t. You’re puffing the pressure on them. They say, Why are you doing this to us? We can’t afford it.

Putnam: So the only people that really, you felt, you heard from in terms of putting pressure on, were the University groups or individuals that wanted to get their story to you.

Hogan: I remember there was one fellow, Everett Irish, do you know Everett?

Putnam: Yes, I know Everett. I taught with Everett.

Hogan: He was a great guy, and he was retiring and he was being put down as an Emeritus Professor. And he says, “I was never a professor. I was always an assistant professor. And I want to be an Emeritus Assistant Professor.” I bought into it… But I liked Everett. That was his wishes and I raised hell about it. And when they printed the retirement list, he was put down as Emeritus Assistant Professor. And he was happy about it, but he’s upset now that they’ve thrown that out and he’s an Emeritus Professor. So whatever. That caused a little tension right there. 

Putnam: Yeah, I remember that one. Now did the subject of academic freedom or  administrative efficiency cause any differences among the Board Members, or between the Board and the Faculty, or anything of that sort? Did you remember anything like that?

Hogan: I don’t think the Board had any problem with anything along that line.

Putnam: Yeah, OK. Which programs, Departments, activities of the University remain in your memory as being outstanding for their contribution in the State, or their leadership? If you were to remember some programs, or some things happening on campus among the various(?)

Hogan: The athletic programs were outstanding. Outstanding. You have a great wrestling tradition. You have the god-father of high school wrestling on campus as the coach, and a name that will live in memory for many years in the Yakima Valley.

Putnam: Eric Beardsley.

Hogan: Right. I was well acquainted with his whole record. And Dean Nicholson. And the football was great here And Dean is still living off that.

Putnam: Yakima is thriving.

Hogan: Oh, yes. The Monday Morning Quarterbacks are happy and pleased. Your

School of Business is outstanding. Your School of Music is outstanding. The

Drama… Helen, and what’s his name...

Putnam: Milo.

Hogan: Milo, yes. Did a great job there in Drama. You know, college is college is college, and I think the undergraduate school here at Everett. at Central Washington in Ellensburg is not having to hang its head in shame for anything. And if you graduate from this institution, you’re prepared to go on for your Doctor’s Degree any place in the country, and you’ll hold your own.

Putnam: Did you feel limited in the amount of service you could render to the University because of those budgetary restrictions that you talked about?

Hogan: Not really. I felt I was given a golden opportunity and that my service was needed at the time.

Putnam: Now, the Higher Education Coordinating Board was originated during your tenure, and what was your opinion of that Board that was appointed by the Legislature, and you know, their function, and their efficiency?

Hogan: I couldn’t really talk to that. I don’t have a great recollection of that. I’ll tell you one thing, Jim Brooks did, he got us enrolled in that, subscribers to that, higher, chronicle of higher education, and that was amazing. It was a good, good professional newspaper. And we had the golden opportunity to attend national conferences, sponsored by whoever the association that this particular university belonged to. What we’re bitching about here, everyone else was...

Putnam: Yes, everybody else was. Now, you mentioned budget as being one of the problems and basic issues. What were some of the other significant items of business that you recall having to deal with while you were a Board member?

Hogan: Tenure.

Putnam: Tenure. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Hogan: I think, tenures at the University was improved behind Garrity’s appointment as President. I think, Jim Brooks felt threatened by tenure. They’re getting too many, that are getting tenure, then dropping their guard and then just floating along. I don’t think that is particularly true. I think Garrity’s attitude toward tenure was more in line with what the campus faculty wanted.

Putnam: Any other items that you recall having had to wrestle with?

Hogan: Oh, we had all kinds of problems, but we had a genius that was on the Board. His name was Sterling Munro. Sterling had been the Executive Director, and Executive aide to the Senator, Henry M. Jackson, and he was an Everett boy, too. And he had a faculty for zeroing in on the basic issues that were presented to us, and analyzing them. And his caliber of analysis. And I remember a State Senator, I can’t think of her name, but she was a appointed to the Board. She was in awe of Sterling.

Putnam: Oh, what was her name? Susan...

Hogan: Yes, Susan, and I can’t think of her last name.

Putnam: Susan, she was from up around north of Seattle there. I remember her.

Hogan: She had run later on for...

Putnam: She was the Chair of the Board later. Wasn’t she?

Hogan: I was Chair then.

Putnam: Well, we have to mention that. Yes. Good. Good.

Hogan: There was a little tiny bit of politics.

Hogan: Were there, on the Board to get...?

Hogan: Yeah, when everyone prior to me had it for two years, and then the balance went from Democrats to Republicans. Case, a local guy said. Hogan’s been there one year and he was on the group that hired Garrity, and we want a Republican.” said, “Have at it!”

Putnam: Well, because of the appointment by a Governor, it is political.

Hogan: It is political, but we looked at it and it was not partisan. Yeah, there is some politics involved. The interest of the University was paramount.

Putnam: Were there any major changes or necessary, for the University that you felt were necessary, but they never got accomplished? Was there anything that you feel that you could have addressed, but really couldn’t?

Hogan: That would be a bad memory. I think time has whacked away at it, and I have no clear recollection.

Putnam: Were you in favor of the rotation of Board Chairs? I know you said you served as Board Chair and you only had a chance to serve it a year, but...

Hogan: One year is enough.

Putnam: Were you in favor of rotation, or do you think that maybe once you got a good Chair, maybe they should have stayed...?

Hogan: Linda Clifton, she was our first Chair, in our group, and she served two terms, and then we lost her. And then, I think Torn was, and I believe he was Chair for two years. Sterling was there for two years, and I think Larry, the local fellow, I’ve forgotten what happened there. Then I was appointed, and I had one year. It’s no great deal. I think one year is fine.

Putnam: Right. Now, when you serve as Chair is there a different function that you play?

Do you become less...

Hogan: You don’t get golf privileges, or anything like that!

Putnam: I mean, do you feel like when issues are addressed that you tend to be more a mediator, and less a participant in the discussion, or is there no...?

Hogan: Well, you count a strong President, who is presenting his side. You’ve got Sterling Munro. You’ve got independent thinking of the local person. You’ve got the independent thinking of everyone. You’ve got a good cross-section, and they participate

 (?)primary of five (?), and there’s no mediating or anything like that. Everyone got their piece out. You knew where they stood. We’d talk it through in our executive sessions if we had one, be it personnel, or something like that. And you had your Attorney General that was always there to make sure you kept within the concepts of the law.

Putnam: How would you describe the relationship between the Board and the President, the faculty, the students, Faculty Senate? Did you feel there was any kind of a special relationship with those groups?

Hogan: I’ll have to describe it as a rich experience. A good experience. A healthy experience, And we enjoyed meeting with the faculty; it was fun. They’re not a bashful group. They’re (?) articulate.(?).

Putnam: Did you feel that there was any, Well, your relationship with the President, and I think often times the faculty perceived the relationship as one of the Board rubber-stamping what the President brought before the agenda. How would you say...?

Hogan: I could see that. I see that at our colosed meetings, which, you know, when, he stood at attention at times, and he was surprised at some meetings, too. Garrity was. I think Jim Brooks had educated us pretty well. We weren’t (7). We were in agreement with his position, Garrity’s position, but I can see where the doubt (?breeds). The constituents, the faculty and those people here would alive at that conclusion. It wasn’t true.

Putnam: Did you ever have any contact with students?

Hogan: Several of the Board members did. I know Linda Clifton had. I didn’t particularly.

Putnam: Now, you know, the secretary of the hoard was usually, or has always been the President’s secretary, and do you think that that worked well, or do you think there was...

Hogan: I thought it worked well. I thought that particular lady was

Putnam: Gloria Craig.

Hogan: Right. Did a magnificent job for us. I have no fault.

Putnam: She has since retired, and we have interviewed her.

Hogan: You have.

Putnam: We just did that several weeks ago.

Hogan: Well, I’ll tell the world, I thought she was a beautiful, wonderful lady.

Putnam: Good. Now, how did you perceive the relationship between town and gown. I know you said, you come from Yakima, so you don’t have as much contact with the town of Ellensburg, but did you have any perception of the relationship of the town?

Hogan: I think my tenure at Central as a Trustee softened my attitude toward the town. And I’m thankful because of that. I did not have a very...

Putnam: What was your original feeling and then how did it...

Hogan: I couldn’t stand it. The only building I came into was the court house. I didn’t particularly like the judge.

Putnam: Oh. I see.

Hogan: ...And that colored my image, and I’m proud to say I was not in a minority in Yakima.

Putnam: So it wasn’t your relationship with business, or any of the other private community. You basically, were related to the County Court House and that was your opinion at that time. How did you feel that the University got along with the town in general as you sat on the Board with them?

Hogan: Yes, it did. (?...). It didn’t cut any ice with Joe. But he was a good lawyer and a good public official. And then you have Dave Gorrie who was on the faculty here, and the, poor soul lost his life in an automobile accident ... And they retired them.

Putnam: James I would like to have you, just to get, I’m sure you have some closing thoughts. You started out this tape by suggesting you really had changed your opinion, and that you have so many positive memories. What kinds of statements would you like to leave us with? Anything we’ve left out, or anything you’d like to say about?

Hogan: Through any (?), now, or in the future, thank Almighty God for creating a Central Washington University. I think you are a premiere college experience, and I would compare this with Yale, or Harvard, or York University, or Columbia, or Gonzaga. And I’m partial to the Jesuits, as I’m a Marquette High School graduate, and a Gonzaga graduate, and I know there are Loyolas and (?) and Gonzaga High School, and Georgetown University, and Fordhams, and (?) I think anyone that has the experience of going to Central, are exposed to some of the best Harvard graduates, Yale graduates, Princeton, Dartmouth. Wasn’t Courtney from a premiere (?)

Putnam: I think it was Princeton, Harvard, maybe Yale.

Hogan: And I think none of the faculty or administration have anything to be ashamed of And I think this is a great institution, and it’s going to continue to be great.

Putnam: (?)...And thank you very much, James.

Hogan: My privilege.

Putnam: Oh, Bob has a question. Yes?

Jones: Do you have any thoughts about the future of the institution?

Hogan: Huh?

Jones: ibid

Hogan: I think the future of this University is going to be in good hands because they have a network of friends. I know their athletic programs have created a network of friends of the University. I am a member of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks and we’re going to be sponsoring a football game of Central Washington and Simon Fraser, Sept. 13, 1997 at the high school Zeppael Stadium in Yakima, Washington. And we had a pleasant experience last fall...

Jones: You did the same thing last fall, didn’t you? The first game was played down there.

Hogan: And we’re anxious to do it again. We’re proud of our relationship, and if you know Tom Parry?

Putnam: Yes, we all remember Coach Parry.

Hogan: Coach Parry.

Putnam: That’s wonderful. Is he a part of that group?

Hogan: Yes, he is. And Coach Parry is a graduate of Washington State University. And a classmate of mine at Gonzaga, who had played football at Washington State, and is married to a lovely lady that was a classmate of Tom Parry’s at Washington State-She told me, they were classmates in the class of dancing.

Putnam: Oh, really.

Hogan: …and he didn’t deny it. You’ve got a great school. Music, Drama, Business, Teaching. You should be proud of yourselves.

Putnam Anything else, Bob? Well, we thank you very much for taking the time to come up, and we will look forward to many more.

Hogan: Thank you. And I’m glad I…